Phrasing.

Congrats on the linking! :)[br]

Originally Posted by: PoundhoundJust out of interest, is this musical or not?[/quote][p]You did a great job of finding 2 examples of the same piece of music but using extremely different timbres. Well done!

Originally Posted by: PoundhoundI believe this is the type of thing that influenced a great many neo-classical guitarists in the 80s, and was played by Steve Vai

Yes, Vai did that segment. And yes, baroque & classical music did influence some rock music shredders.

Jon Lord practically invented Bach & roll or ("baroque & roll") shredding in his solo on this tune.

https://youtu.be/Wr9ie2J2690?t=127

His bandmate Blackmore did more than his fair share of classically influenced lines as well. :) Check him out ripping straight from Bach's playbook.

https://youtu.be/ryN3gG9CKF4?t=124

And sometimes they did this stuff in unison.

https://youtu.be/8xuBw63xj00?t=120

Uli Jon Roth in the Scorpions was doing this stuff in the 70s also.

https://youtu.be/Zs5NOrYYV2s?t=36

And of course Malmsteen in the 80s with his jaw dropping melodies & lines straight out of Paganini & Bach but played through a Strat & Marshall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAsHFSrh0i8

[quote=Poundhound]As for being "predominantly emotive", yes, that's probably true. But predominantly still leave room for logical too.Good music is predominantly emotive but with some logic in there.😁

This gets to an important point: it is a false dichotomy to think that logic & emotion are mutually exclusive polar opposites. It's not as if when the licks get faster there is corresponding loss of emotion.

In fact, I think it's more accurate to say that the best examples of fast playing require strict logic in order to be musical & evoke a favorable emotional response.

The faster you want to play, the more notes you have to have organized in some understandable structure ahead of time. And there can be an element of atheleticism in this approach, the adrenaline rush of going fast! The sheer thrill of the speed! But there's no reason this has to diminish the logic & order required to do it in a beautiful, melodic & thus musical way. I think in many cases it adds to beauty & can highten the emotional response to any listener that appreciates this approach. Not only the result, but the time, effort & thought required to achieve it.

Now going deeper into music & emotion.

Music does not contain emotion or feelings. [br][br]Music is highly, specifically organized sound moving through the air. Music has the potential to evoke an emotional reaction in the mind of the listener.

Emotions or feelings are your mind's reaction to things you encounter (in this case sounds you hear, since this is music) based upon your values.

So, when you hear a certain type of music that matches your values, you are pleased, you like it. And conversely, to a piece of music that does not match your values, you are displeased, you don't like it.

Some people hear a BB King song and are bored. They think, "Why is this music so slow and boring? All that guy is doing is playing the same 5 notes over and again with dumb squealy sounding bends."

Other people hear the exact same BB King song and think, "Oh my goodness! This is the most amazing, passionate playing I've ever heard!"

Some people hear a Yngwie Malmsteen song and are bored. They think, "Why is this music so fast and noisy? All that guy is doing is playing the same zillion notes over and again with dumb squealy sounding bends."

Other people hear the exact same Malmsteen song and think, "Oh my goodness! This is the most amazing, passionate playing I've ever heard!"

Obviously, the music is not different each time. Both listeners are hearing the exact same objects. The difference is in how each listener evaluates the music he is hearing; in what each listener individually finds enjoyable and valuable.[br][br]Fast playing & slow playing are merely two different, complimentary tools the musician can use to achieve the sounds they desire to create.

Originally Posted by: manXcatI noted Christopher's references to the salience of timbre, and it's given me food for thought and reconsideration of perspective.

I think timbre is an incredibly obvious but much overlooked component of why individuals have positive or negative reactions to music. I did a little essay on it with musical examples that you might find interesting.

http://www.truthagainsttheworld.com/essays/musical-timbre

Poundhound. On the second Crossroads link. Critique and a tip. Learn to use a timed link.

Why? [u]I never stayed to listen to what you actually wanted me to hear.[/u] The pathetically acted puerile ego play for the first half of that unnecessarily bloated clip from a flim you obviously admire I would never give the time of day to even to watch the trailer had me wanting to chew my arm off and club myself to death with it. I left before, unable to endure any more, I did so.

Contrary to Christopher's opinion, I don't think that was a good example if persuasion to your point of view was your objective. Hero status worship isn't helpful either, regardless that I readily acknowledge Steve Vai's expertise and enjoy listening to his interviews, point of view and admire [u]the man[/u].

IMV this would have been a more effective to the point persuasive comparative clip without all the superfluous theatre and unnessesary shield of an uncriticisable sacred cow name association, both of which quite frankly are major negatives for any non-herd mentality type. Distasteful unnecessary theatrical affectation is a utter turn of for me. Obviously I've never been nor could be a KISS, Gun's 'n Roses, AC/DC cult theatre fan, even if I don't mind one or two of the latter's tunes. Even where there is a runs on the board commanded high level of earned respect, I see the 'heroes of the piece' warts 'n all regardless.

[br]Different piece by Paganini, nevertheless this affirms Christopher's point about timbre. I much prefer this.

In any case, you reinforce the point of view raised by both JeffS65 and me. An endless ego serving technical shredding display without musicality is as pointless to all but an esoteric audience as it is tastelessly unenjoyable to our, well mine at least, ears. The first link you provided along with the second of the same piece played on guitar substituted by me are the acknowledged antithesis of that.

Shoot me a link to Wagner's Trauermarsch from Götterdämmerung or the Overture from Rienzi transcribed for guitar played by Steve Vai and I may be persuaded to even be a fan of the style/genre.

Originally Posted by: manXcat

On the second Crossroads link. Critique and a tip. Learn to use a timed link.

[/quote]

The beginning of that clip was dramatic overacting for the purpose of a movie scene. It was intentionally acted over the top as a cutting contest. I can understand it might not be entertaining to everyone. But Steve Vai does an outstanding job playing the role of the "devil's arrogant guitarist"![br][br]Anyway the section that is the Paganini's 5th caprice on electric starts at 3:39. Ralph Macchio even does a good job acting like he's playing the parts. You can see near the end of the segment they sped up the film . It's a technical effect, but it's still pretty neat considering he had to learn the motions & then do them at a consistently lower speed to make it look correct once sped up. And done before CGI!

https://youtu.be/CqdL36VKbMQ?t=219

FWIW the movie has a bunch of fun blues guitar & even a bit of Mozart's 'Rondo Alla Turca' with a blues turnaround. :)[br][br]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DgRCXJLpLU

Originally Posted by: manXcatDistasteful unnecessary theatrical affectation is a utter turn of for me.

Abundantly clear! :)

[quote=manXcat]Different piece by Paganini, nevertheless this affirms Christopher's point about timbre. I much prefer this.

Wow, great find! Outstanding performance of a wonderful piece.

Hi Christopher and Poundhound.

Hence the, paraphrased, 'had it been a timed link' suggestion.

What I took from that "Crossroads" clip was the name of the piece which sent me on the search revealing that meat 'n taters amateur performance of it which supported one aspect, the point of your comparative argument Poundhound. If the first, it mightn't have been the best link I might have found, but was adequate to get the point across. And yes, I admire, envy in the flattering sense, the technical tenacity and skill involved. Steve Vai's attitude, ethos, and communicativeness I equally admire, although any aspiration to shredding in that style however poorly executed is denied me by the lateness of the hour and 'privilege' of age. So if accidentally, it's fortunate I don't aspire to what would now be a recognised unrealistic, unachievable objective.

I actually prefer classical music to contemporary popular music. Always have. But my exposure and predilection for what I do like is pretty broad as illustrated in my signature line link featuring a popular song of the day whose philosophical lyrics resonate with me as they did with audiences in its time. In particular the style, feel and timbre of British Swing from the 1930s totally engages me, with Carroll Gibbons and his Savoy Hotel Orpheans accompanied by Anne Lenner's vocals are mesmerising for me.

The 'best' music provokes passionate feeling, evokes contemplation or reflection, or if nothing else is pleasing to the ear if only to make one feel good as so much of the simply lyricised The Beatles early material did. And who doesn't feel good listening for instance to America's "Ventura Highway" on a sunny day cruisin' the 101 to Camarillo or Ventura with the tonneau down?

If discussion of guitar evokes extremes of strong personal opinon, it's a relative minor skirmish compared with classical compositions and their composers which would present as the equivalent of opinionative virtual nuclear war, as I dare to suspect Christopher might corroberate? Other than knowing who and what I prefer aurally from many many years exposure, technical discussion of it is beyond my erudition, my life specialisation expertise lying elsewhere.

I so wish our conversations could be spoken with all, the supplementary expressiveness of body language, facial expression and vocal inflection that medium offers, as frequently, hyperbole for exaggerative effect or even strongly expressed view can provide offence when none is intended. If I've given any, belated apologies.

Originally Posted by: manXcatI actually prefer classical music to contemporary popular music.[/quote]

My absolute favorite music to listen to & be inspired by is Beethoven's. Particularly the 32 piano sonatas & 5 concertos, also the 9 symphonies.

Originally Posted by: manXcatBut my exposure and predilection for what I do like is pretty broad as illustrated in my signature line link featuring a popular song of the day ...[/quote]

I also love particular selections from a broad category of genres. Tunes from the Great American songbook, early jazz, Broadway tunes are definitely a big draw for me also. Lots of great melodies, lush chord progressions & fun swing rhythms! Who could ask more anything more? :D But I don't like all of it.[br][br]And I don't like all classical music. And I while I have endless admiration for Bach, have studied & learned from tons of his music, I don't really enjoy listening to it. Nor much Baroque. Too much endless dreary counterpoint, box checking motion, without the corresponding melodic arcs & dynamic & dramatic turns I love from Beethoven, Liszt, Tchaikovsky & Rachmanninoff for example.

And while I admire a great deal of rock guitar, I don't really enjoy listening to most of it. There are a couple of Vai albums I can listen to occasionally. But most of it just isn't my personal preference. Most of the reasons are due to technical consideration: the way he phrases his melodies, the note choices, the harmonic progressions, the song structures & forms. His work is not enjoyable or satisfying to me. In spite of the amazing guitar prowess.

I think the same of most guitar shredders. I admire the skill but don't enjoy certain technical aspects of their music. Malmsteen & Blackmore are exceptions because they do satisfy my personal technical musical consideration check list.

Originally Posted by: manXcatThe 'best' music provokes passionate feeling, evokes contemplation or reflection, or if nothing else is pleasing to the ear if only to make one feel good ...[/quote]

Sure. To that list I personally add: to give me heroic inspiration & make me ready to face the day, meet conflict with determination, carve my way in the world, damn the torpedoes! :D Or at least, that's what I get from Beethoven. :)[br][br]

Originally Posted by: manXcatAnd who doesn't feel good listening for instance to America's "Ventura Highway" on a sunny day cruisin' the 101 to Camarillo or Ventura with the tonneau down?

[p]Well, that would be me. I don't enjoy much laid back strummy acoustic guitar music. And that particular song has a fairly bland melody & chord progression without much conflict or dynamic arc. It's extremely well done, but it's a great example of something I just don't enjoy, mostly for technical reasons, partly for the timbre of the guitar.

[quote=manXcat]If discussion of guitar evokes extremes of strong personal opinon, it's a relative minor skirmish compared with classical compositions and their composers which would present as the equivalent of opinionative virtual nuclear war, as I dare to suspect Christopher might corroberate?

Yes, this mostly has to do with highly complex technical considerations. I've read a great deal about this & studied the music out of curiostiy. But here's thing. Even if I can show how & why I think Beethoven's piano sonatas are superior to virtually any other musical composition (in short, large & small scale themeatic & structural integration), that can never be a reason for someone to stop enjoying music they enjoy & enjoy Beethoven instead.

[quote=manXcat] Other than knowing who and what I prefer aurally from many many years exposure, technical discussion of it is beyond my erudition, my life specialisation expertise lying elsewhere.

Exactly. Life is short. It's enough to know what you enjoy, why you enjoy it & then spend your time enjoying it.

[quote=manXcat]I so wish our conversations could be spoken with all, the supplementary expressiveness of body language, facial expression and vocal inflection that medium offers, as frequently, hyperbole for exaggerative effect or even strongly expressed view can provide offence when none is intended. If I've given any, belated apologies.

Haha! If it helps, while reading my posts, you can imagine my hands waving around dramatically & my voice getting louder when I talk about Beethoven. :D That should give you a reasonable facsimile of the experience.

No worries or need for apologies. I appreciate your passion, candor & the conversation!

Originally Posted by: ChristopherSchlegel

Music does not contain emotion or feelings.

Music is highly, specifically organized sound moving through the air. Music has the potential to evoke an emotional reaction in the mind of the listener.

Emotions or feelings are your mind's reaction to things you encounter (in this case sounds you hear, since this is music) based upon your values.

So, when you hear a certain type of music that matches your values, you are pleased, you like it. And conversely, to a piece of music that does not match your values, you are displeased, you don't like it.

in the 80's, I had a sort of a guitar guru dude at a local store called Margritte's Music. The store was in my college days town of Moorhead Minnesota. Let me tell you th impact of that store. It was a top notch store with pro level gear. Steve Stine of Guitar Zoom went to that store. Mitch Gallagher went to that store. Jonny Lang went to that store. Note: I did know both Mitch and Steve back in the day.

Anyway, the guru was named Kenny Rairdon. He knew everyone in L.A.. Provably. He had lived there previously and had played in a few decent bands to include a precursor to the band Autograph.

Does any of this matter? Yes. Wisdom. He'd 'been there'.

He selected very few students to teachand his lessons were less on technique and deep theory and more about understanding how to connect yourself to the instrument and how to communicate to others.

To this topic,his wisdom was; music is like any language. It's used to communicate. The word itself is used to tell a story or an idea. It's the person that puts the feeling in to the words. It's not just the words you used but how you use them.

Though he never directly said it; I got the impression that his days in L.A., he'd seen more than his share of people that didn't get that. He saw more people trying to make it than make music.

Back to the point.

Like language, music in and of itself does not make emotion. The speaker or the player fills in that space. We all have the same access to the notes on the fretboard. Whydoes Derek Trucks bring such a sweet intensity to his slide? Why does Eric Johnson's melody uplift. What does Tony Iommi's dark riffage bring that heaviness?

The player's connection to their music does that.

A player has to connect to what they're playing to bring that emotion. Even studio guys like Tim Pierce can do that quickly by knowing the channels of feeling that inspire them.

Emotion is an abstraction that takes those musical rules and makes them in to something personal which is as varied as there are people on the planet. Organized music is the basline we used within which we place the emotional message we wish to convey.

My little essay on the subject...... ;)

Wooft! There is a lot to go through since I was last here. Too much for me on a Kindle to properly reply to. I can't cut quote excerpts etc. So I'm going to keep this as brief as possible.

1) ManXcat - I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread. Nothing here requires an apology. I've read through your post a few times and I can assure you I'm not upset or offended or whatever it is you think you've inflicted upon me. Your posts have enhanced the thread and a great discussion has been had with you and Christopher. Definitely the kind of chat that I would've loved to have had it face to face.

2) My apologies for my poor YouTubery. As I say, Kindle. Not the best for the internet. Next time I can at least give a time stamp.

3) I've never seen Crossroads 😄 The scene is famous in it's down right. Personally, I prefer Tenacious D's duel with the devil in Pick of Destiny. I

4) Christopher - thanks for those links. I love Deep Purple. When I was 12 they and Iron Maiden were responsible for moving me from a Beatles and Abba fan to a hard rockheavy metal fan pretty much overnight, and the interplay between Jon and Ritchie was a huge part of that.

5) For the record, I'm not a big Vai fan. Like Christopher, I find a great deal of his music unlistenable. I much prefer Joe Satriani, who appears to me to be less technically gifted but clearly a superior composer.

6) As if by magic, the very excellent Rick Beato has just posted a video on YouTube with Eric Johnson discussing style, tone and inspiration. If you're interested:

Rick and Eric

It's a long video, and I'd liked to have seen Eric play more, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Originally Posted by: JeffS65He selected very few students to teachand his lessons were less on technique and deep theory and more about understanding how to connect yourself to the instrument and how to communicate to others.[/quote]

This is an separate issue that I didn't cover: the role of emotion in performing the music. Interesting stuff & a very difficult subject to articulate!

I've seen obvious cases when some musician (amateur & pro) just isn't into whatever they are playing and it shows. But I've seen players do amazing things, create a big emotional response in their listeners, only to find out the musician was actually struggling with the performance, or not enjoying, not feeling the emotion they were evoking in listeners.

Part of that is just being a pro, getting on with it regardless of what kind of day you are having. The show must go on!

It's tricky to put yourself in the position of automatically calling up the "correct emotion" that matches the song when the song comes up in the pre-arranged set list. Night after night.

And I've seen plenty of performers that were certainly "feeling it", but not really playing that well. :)[br]

Originally Posted by: JeffS65We all have the same access to the notes on the fretboard. Whydoes Derek Trucks bring such a sweet intensity to his slide? Why does Eric Johnson's melody uplift. What does Tony Iommi's dark riffage bring that heaviness?

[p]Good questions! The desire to play slide sweetly, or play an uplifting melody, or play a dark, heavy riff is only an unfulfilled desire until you put the work in to make it real.

Lots of people want to (or say they want to) accomplish some musical or creative ideal or goal. But whatever the initial desire to create an emotional reaction, it takes a lot of focused effort & work to get an effective original end result.

And there's no guarantee that it will be effective even if you put in the work!

[quote=JeffS65]A player has to connect to what they're playing to bring that emotion. Even studio guys like Tim Pierce can do that quickly by knowing the channels of feeling that inspire them.

Sometimes I wonder how much of what a musician does in this respect resembles what an actor does when playing a role.

I love to play blues. But I'm rarely if ever sad or depressed, etc. I certainly don't wait until I feel blue to play blues. :) I know what notes, chords & timbres & techniques can evoke that sound. And if I waited until I was experiencing a certain emotion to attempt to capture it in music I'd never get anything musical done.

Interesting conversation, Jeff! Thanks!

Originally Posted by: Poundhound3) I've never seen Crossroads 😄 The scene is famous in it's down right. Personally, I prefer Tenacious D's duel with the devil in Pick of Destiny.[/quote]

It really is a fun movie every guitar nerd should see at least once!

Originally Posted by: Poundhound4) Christopher - thanks for those links.[/quote][br]You're welcome! Fun stuff! When I was young I also started with the Beatles. I just added Deep Purple to the mix. :)

[quote=Poundhound]5) For the record, I'm not a big Vai fan. Like Christopher, I find a great deal of his music unlistenable. I much prefer Joe Satriani, who appears to me to be less technically gifted but clearly a superior composer.

Interesting! I think Satch puts more work into making his melodies "hummable" & chord progressions & rhythms straight forward. Whereas Vai likes to be a little more tricky or sideways in his compositions.

[quote=Poundhound]6) As if by magic, the very excellent Rick Beato has just posted a video on YouTube with Eric Johnson discussing style, tone and inspiration.

Outstanding! Thanks for the link.

No time to reply this morning other than to quickly say thanks all for your conversation. Albeit absent its stress of performance pressure, nevertheless this thread has my synapse activity firing with information assimilation and further enquiry at a level Lewis Hamilton might experience pushing at Monza in the wet with Verstappen up his **** (self--censored naughty word).🏎🏎🏎