Rythm and You - Knowing what you're doing

Ok, I often times play guitar (as that seems logical since I'm a guitarist) and I just sorta jam. Though I can hold I rythem quite well, at least to my knowledge (so I've been told) I can't say I know what the time signatures I'm playing in are. How do I know if I'm in 4/4 5/4 or what?

To my knowledge, every time sig. has a different pulse. Typically in rock, the 1 is strongest. Just count it from the strongest pulse. Or no, get examples of tunes that have different time signatures and then use that to get accustomed to how they feel. From the top of my head 'Love or Confusion' by Hendrix is 3/4, any other song is 4/4, I can't think of a 5/4 tune.

Count after the ever constant cymbol crash on 1 (lol) ... One Two Three Four Five One Two etc.

The original mission impossible theme is in 5/4. Hendrix's manic depression is in 9/8. If you like metal, listen to alittle meshuggah. They use crazy time sig's and rhythms. As for counting them, whatever rate your tap your foot to the tune. 1 is always on the beginning. the best way I think to get it is to get some actually sheet music, look at the time signature and music, and just listen to the music while looking at the score. It will click.

Start simple, and get a solid grasp of 4/4 first. Counting and rhythm is very important.

Here's a good excercise, grab any chord you feel real comfortable with. Now just strum down playing to the 1/4 note counting 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 etc, put a little extra emphasis on the strum that falls on the downbeat of 1. Now do the same but slightly change it by throwing in an 8th note rhyhtm on beat 3...so you'll have 1 2 3 & 4 1 2 3 & 4. Keep adding to it, 1 2 3 & 4 &, then 1 & 2 3& 4&.

Once you feel comfortable with that try playing syncopations.

ex: 1 (2) + 3 + (4) the beats in parenthesis are not played. Doing stuff like this will help you out. Also try getting together with just a drummer sometime.

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
Hendrix's manic depression is in 9/8.

I would have to disagree, I think it's definetly a fast 3/4. It feels more like a fast quarter note feel then a med.-up triplet. Plus it would make more sense for when it goes to the A chord after each riff, in 3/4 it would just be 4 measures of 3/4, in 9/8 you would have to change the time signature to 12/8 or 2 measures of 6/8.

Your right although it changes switching back and forth. The main riff part is in 9/8. (Da-da-da Da-da-da Da-da-da) That's definitely 9/8, well at least to me. I would agree it would be 3/4, but there is a clear division of 3 between each beat, and 3 beats to a measure of music. But yeah your point is valid, and if I did write it out to save myself from changing T.S., I would write it in 3/4.

Main riff complete is 9/8 +12/8.

Okay....
When you hear that riff Da da da, Da da da, Da da da , Chord..you feel the pulse on each of the Da da da's, which to me would represent each one of the da's as a quarter note. If it was in 9/8 you would only feel the pulse on the 1st Da, which would make it a much slower tempo.

Ex:
|9/8 Da da da Da da da Da da da|12/8 (chord)......||

So in 9/8 all of that would take place within 2 measures

|3/4 Da da da | Da da da | Da da da |Chord (4 measures)

3/4 represents a much faster tempo and a heavier emphasis on each one of the da's.

You know what the difference between 3/4 and 9/8 is, right? 9/8 actually represents a quicker pace than 3/4. But besides that 9/8 is a compound T.S., meaning it carries a background of 3 (sort of like a triplet). Da da da (repeat).... is clearly a background of three. Three clear pulses between beats. 3/4 would be like Da da Da da Da da, cause it's a simple T.S., meaning a background of two. Each beat has an upbeat and a downbeat. That's not how that song feels.

I'd say it's 9/8 because there is clearly 3 beats, each diviable by 3 (like a triplet). I can see where your saying it's 3/4, because that's basically the same thing although each Da da da is a seperate measure of music. That's ok too. It's just that Da da da is the basic pulse throughout the whole song, which is clearly compound (feel). Then there is the alteration of 3-4 beats before each change. I dunno, that's just how I see it.

Also, remember tempo has nothing to do with time signatures.

The main argument here is wether the Da da da Da da da Da da da should be represented as quarter notes or 8th note triplets. If we look at that as 8th note triplets that phrase would encompass one measure of music:

|9/8 (1)Da da da (2)Da da da (3) Da da da|| Which would represent a medium pulse (tempo), which I feel would be very uncharacteristic of the song.

I hear that song as a fast waltz with each one of the Da's representing a down beat
|3/4 (1)Da (2)da (3)da | (1)Da (2) da (3) da |etc..

Now you mentioned about the equal subdivisions, which in 3/4 makes sense when you listen to the chord part (Da dada dada) or 1 2+ 3+| 1 2+ 3+|

So here's how I see that song represented in rhythm:
|3/4 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | 1 2+3+| 1 2+3+| 1 2+ 3+| 1 2+3+||

Why are you mixing tempo with T.S.'s? They have nothing to do with each other. T.S. is the feel and tempo indicates the pace from beat to beat. The pace of the song NEVER effects the T.S. Never.

The difference is exactly what you said. You only hear a clear pulse on 1 as you ascribed. Then 2 beats follow, although there is no clear pulse. Your 1 2+3+ is more like counting "One ta-ta-ta-ta" rather than "One Two and Three and"? Right? Two and three don't really have a pulse. So it can't be 3/4. There is no stress on two and three, thus two and three (as you wrote them) are actually a background of One. A compound time signature. Maybe a better argument would be to say it's 3/8 instead of 3/4.

Alot of people don't understand time signatures. Especially Compound time signatures because the top number (6 of 6/8) doesn't indictate that there are 6 beats. Instead the division of a beat, 6/8 actually has 2 beats. Each divisable by 3. Which adds up to 6. Kinda complex but it does help in the long run of understanding feel.

Originally posted by basics
From the top of my head 'Love or Confusion' by Hendrix is 3/4 ...

What I meant was ... now I've forgotten the name again. Manic Depression.

Well Jesus, haven't you two ripped this one to ****.

Okay, I'm going to try this just 1 more time becuase it's getting fustrating.
I'm assuming your referring to the Da da da as being a triplet right? Becuase that's what i've said in the past 4 posts and you've said nothing to dispute it. So if you transcibed the 9 note riff as being 3 triplets comprising 1 measure you would have the pulse (beat) falling on 1 , 4, & 7. Now count it out clapping on 1 , 4, & 7.

Now I'm saying that each da is represented by a 1/4 note, which would mean the 9 note riff would be represented by 3 quarter notes comprising 3 measures. So now you would have 3 1/4 notes per measure, with each quarter note being stressed. Clap that out. Which clap is faster?

So even so both examples would be played in the same tempo, the example in 3/4 would represent a faster beat.

3/4 played at a very fast tempo would feel like 9/8, the difference would be in the beat. 3/4 would take on a more aggressive, pulsating feel, while 9/8 would definetly have a lighter touch to it.

Ahh. Ok you have me completely lost now. I don't see where your saying clapping in 9/8 is going to be at any different speed then clapping in 3/4??? Whether I go 1, 2, 3, 1, ... or to 9. I clap each number at the same speed. Trust me, T.S. does not determine speed. That's what tempo is for. The tempo tells you how fast to slap 1, 2,3 ... not the T.S.

Here's the difference in 9/8 and 3/4. Clap the numbers at the same speed.

3/4 : ONE TWO THREE
9/8 : ONE two three FOUR five six SEVEN eight nine.

One in both is slightly stronger. Numbers in small case are not considered beats, they are divisions. Like if you were to put 'and' in between each number in 3/4; ONE and TWO and THREE and. In manic depression beats Two and Three do not have a clear pulse. Only One sounds like a beat, thus two and three are a background of ONE. The difference in 3/4 is you can clearly hear a pulse on ONE, TWO, and THREE. Not just ONE like 3/8 or 9/8. Accept this as true and you will understand.

In compound time signatures the top number doesn't tell you how many beats like a simple time signature does. In a simple time signature like 4/4, we know there's four beats to a measure. In a compound time signature like 9/8, the top numbers tells you how many divided beats. So the top number is always divisable by 3. 3/8, 6/4, 9/8, 12/16. 3/8 has 1 beat, 6/4 has two, and well you can figure out the rest.

As for the triplet, they are not triplets. If your thinking the polyrhythm 3:2. A compound T.S. is not 2 beats divided in 3 per say. You could argue your way to prove it so, but it's a bad way of looking at it. 3/8 sounds alot like 3/4 although when you count two and three there is no pulse in the music. Like manic depression, the only clear pulse is on ONE. WHich is why it's 3/8, or if look at it as all three Da-da-da's as being in one measure, it's 9/8. Although after having the discussion I would recount 9/8 and correct that to be 3/8 instead.

About the feel of 9/8 and 3/4, I would sort of agree. 9/8 does have a softer pace because of the division of three between each beat. 3/4 has more of a bouncy feel, since and subdivision would be like down, up, down, up, down, up. One and Two and Three and sounds bouncy. 9/8 is more dance like, DA ta ta DA ta ta DA ta ta. Fur Elise is in 3/8 and so are several other dance tunes. The Waltz is in 3/4, but the waltz is a particular feel. Since ONE TWO and THREE all have a pulse.

BTW, please accept this as true. NOTE values nor Time Signature define the pace of the music. We have a tempo for that very reason. Time signature only tell you the feel. Note values only tell you the lenght at which you play a note or rhythm. A sixteenth note is NOT faster than an eighth note. A sixteenth note in 12/16 is just as fast as eighth note in 6/8 at 60 bpm. They both last for exactly one second.

1st of all, I'm referring to "pulse" not speed, the speed would remain consistent regardless of T.S. If you read through my posts you will see I've mentioned "pulse" several times. At the bottom of page 1 I did use the term tempo which was a mistake.

2nd of all, would you please stop giving me definitions of compound time signatures, I know all about compound time signatures, metric modulation, hemiola's, polyrhythms, claves, etc, etc

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
Ahh. Ok you have me completely lost now. I don't see where your saying clapping in 9/8 is going to be at any different speed then clapping in 3/4??? Whether I go 1, 2, 3, 1, ... or to 9. I clap each number at the same speed. Trust me, T.S. does not determine speed. That's what tempo is for. The tempo tells you how fast to slap 1, 2,3 ... not the T.S.

* I clearly stated in my post previous to your reply "although the tempo would remain consistent, 3/4 would have a faster beat"

Here's the difference in 9/8 and 3/4. Clap the numbers at the same speed.

3/4 : ONE TWO THREE
9/8 : ONE two three FOUR five six SEVEN eight nine.

*your not clapping the numbers at the exact speed, becuase in 9/8 your not clapping on beats 2,3,5,6,8&9. In 9/8 your clapping out a dotted quarter note, which would be the equivilent of clapping out a dotted half note rhythm in 3/4. The pulse is completely different.
Do a fast 3/4 and clap on every beat, now do a fast 3/4 and just clap on 1...that's the difference I'm talking about. In Manic Depression the pulse falls on each one of the notes of the 9 note guitar riff, which would represent a fast 3/4 vrs. a 9/8 where the pulse would fall on every 3rd note of the guitar riff.
The only way to argue that it would be in 9/8 would be to say that every note of the guitar riff is a doted 1/4, which would represent an extremely fast pulsed 9/8, too fast to even feel the triplet subdivision.



As for the triplet, they are not triplets. If your thinking the polyrhythm 3:2. A compound T.S. is not 2 beats divided in 3 per say. You could argue your way to prove it so, but it's a bad way of looking at it. 3/8 sounds alot like 3/4 although when you count two and three there is no pulse in the music. Like manic depression, the only clear pulse is on ONE. WHich is why it's 3/8, or if look at it as all three Da-da-da's as being in one measure, it's 9/8. Although after having the discussion I would recount 9/8 and correct that to be 3/8 instead.

*okay, if I remember correctly the 1st 3 notes of the riff were just an A major triad. I'm saying A C# and E are each represented by a quarter note and each recieve a pulse. And, I believe you are saying A C# and E are each represented by an 8th note and only the note A recieves a pulse. Correct?

Originally posted by noticingthemistake

In compound time signatures the top number doesn't tell you how many beats like a simple time signature does. In a simple time signature like 4/4, we know there's four beats to a measure. In a compound time signature like 9/8, the top numbers tells you how many divided beats. So the top number is always divisable by 3. 3/8, 6/4, 9/8, 12/16. 3/8 has 1 beat, 6/4 has two, and well you can figure out the rest.

**6/4 is not a compound time signature, I believe you mean 6/8. The same with 12/16, I belive you mean 12/8.

As for the triplet, they are not triplets. If your thinking the polyrhythm 3:2. A compound T.S. is not 2 beats divided in 3 per say.

**In a compound meter of 8 the pulse is on the dotted 1/4, which is subdivided into a triplet. I don't understand where you come up with that polyrhythm analogy.

No you don't understand compound time signatures. For one you do count all 9 numbers in a 9/8 T.S. They just don't get a beat, they are a division but you must count them or you don't get a 9/8 feel. I don't get where and who told you to leave those numbers out. If so there is no clear dinstinct between 9/8 and 3/4 (in both your only clapping 3 beats), which is where this confusion lies. And why I keep trying to explain to you the difference, because it is impossible to continue other wise. BTW 6/4 is a compound time signature, 2 dotted half note beats. So is 12/16 which is two dotted eighth note beats.

Like I said the quarter note divided into a triplet is a bad way to look at compound time signatures. And where does the tempo fit into this. It's 3/8 because the feel of the entire song is Da-da-da (better yet Da-ta-ta, maybe that's where the confusion lies) 3/8. Not DA-DA-DA which is characteristic to 3/4. That's how I see it, if you want to argue that two and three have a pulse. I don't hear it. Yes, there are some drums and sometimes chords fall on those (divided)beats, but ONE, to me, is the only clear beat.

Do you understand why I say it's 3/8. It's not because of which notes I chose to represent a beat or the tempo or pace of the song. It's the "PULSE-ta-ta PULSE-ta-ta" feel the song has.

Ceize to think of the tempo in determining whether a tune is in 3/4 or 9/8. Some composers do this but then you have to kick them around a bit before they stop asking well, "why do some people write 3/2 instead of 3/4, blah, blah, blah?" Just because there's 3 beats doesn't mean you get a nice choice of which T.S. to use, and they all mean the same thing. Some do think, if it's faster use 3/4, if it's slower use 9/8 or whatever. They don't get it.

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
No you don't understand compound time signatures. For one you do count all 9 numbers in a 9/8 T.S. They just don't get a beat, they are a division but you must count them or you don't get a 9/8 feel.

Hello!! That's exactly what I said. Please tell me where I said other wise!:mad:

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
[B BTW 6/4 is a compound time signature, 2 dotted half note beats. So is 12/16 which is two dotted eighth note beats.

**6/4 is debatable, sometimes the pulse is on the dotted half, sometimes (more commonly in my exp.) the pulse is on the quarter. Your right 12/16 is compound, except it is made up of 4 dotted 8ths not 2.

Like I said the quarter note divided into a triplet is a bad way to look at compound time signatures.

**Why?


And where does the tempo fit into this. It's 3/8 because the feel of the entire song is Da-da-da (better yet Da-ta-ta, maybe that's where the confusion lies) 3/8. Not DA-DA-DA which is characteristic to 3/4. That's how I see it, if you want to argue that two and three have a pulse. I don't hear it. Yes, there are some drums and sometimes chords fall on those (divided)beats, but ONE, to me, is the only clear beat.

**That's what I've been arguing all along, that each note of the riff A C# E G B D D D# E recieves a pulse, and the chord part clealy represents and equal subdivision of the beats 2 & 3, which is entirely characteristic of 3/4.

Do you understand why I say it's 3/8. It's not because of which notes I chose to represent a beat or the tempo or pace of the song. It's the "PULSE-ta-ta PULSE-ta-ta" feel the song has.

**The ta's recieve too much of an emphasis to be considered an 8th note feel. And when you analyze the rhythms of the rest of the song it defintely fits into more of a characteristic 3/4 feel.


Ceize to think of the tempo in determining whether a tune is in 3/4 or 9/8. Some composers do this but then you have to kick them around a bit before they stop asking well, "why do some people write 3/2 instead of 3/4, blah, blah, blah?" Just because there's 3 beats doesn't mean you get a nice choice of which T.S. to use, and they all mean the same thing. Some do think, if it's faster use 3/4, if it's slower use 9/8 or whatever. They don't get it.

**Why do you always have to insert these demeaning paragraphs with words like "Cieze" "Accept as the Truth" "Believe me tHis" like your the authority...it becomes quite annoying. Just trying to have an intelligent debate.
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