So......

Alright, with the threats of banning going on and me fresh off my latest suspension, (I still cant take a shower facing the shower head) Ive been extra careful what I write cuz Im really not sure what can be tolerated. I was just about to make a humerous but kind of nonsensical response to a thread, but then stopped cuz I didnt know how it would responded to by the mods. It was in no way offensive or an attack or even a random thing to say, just something that didnt really contribute to the discussion of the thread and it involved asterisks and Earthman calming me down after I nearly attacked someone. Is this the stuff youre trying to limit?

So ok guys, what exactly is it that you expect from us behavior wise? Id have to say one of the reasons I like this forum so much is because I can just vent and be an idiot sometimes with my fellow idiots on the board. I personally didnt see it as a problem, because other than the open discussion forum, things have been pretty much strictly guitar and good discussion that stayed on topic.

Please clarify on the rules so I can stop being paranoid.

There's a sticky thread in Open Discussion stating rules and regulations. :)

Originally Posted by: iihollyThere's a sticky thread in Open Discussion stating rules and regulations. :)

TO THE MODS: I think if you guys don't want randomized posting, that should go somewhere in that sticky too. Be as specific as you possibly can, so we can all know exactly what you expect of us. I, like stackny, am fairly paranoid about getting banned as of late, and I really don't want that to happen.

See, I'm afraid to reply to this at all because I have a strange feeling that anyone who posts in this thread will be automatically banned. This is really getting out of hand, please clarify what it is we can and can not do, with no gray areas. Please don't say "it's okay sometimes" because then it's a difference in opinion as to when it's an appropriate time.

Ok, I"m going to add my thoughts as well. I understand completely that you don't want random crap cluttering the forums up and I agree with that completely. But I figure we're taking it a bit too far when that regulation starts to overwhelm things like the Open Discussion section. If someone posts something nonsensical in the Music Theory section, then that's not helping anyone learn anything and I agree that that kind of thing must not happen. But isn't the open discussion supposed to be a section where we engage in whatever we want?

Originally Posted by: Open Discussion's descriptionIntroduce yourself, meet people, talk about whatever you want.

Furthermore, what about the mods? How many of the mods have posted nonsense? I'm not going to go and point fingers, but it's not like we couldn't make a list of nonsense that mods have made.

In addition to that, not all of us are just registered users. Some of us are high bandwidth, paying customers. I don't use the lessons as much as I could, but part of the reason I pay is because I want to help the forum, but I don't know if I like the idea of paying if it starts feeling more like a dictatorship. I know, you probably make enough money from this already to be able to afford banning a good number of high bandwidth users, so how much does this one matter, right?

Again, I understand and agree there should be limits and things like what goes on in the yep thread should stay contained in places like the yep thread, but if you're goal is to completely annhililate all every size shape and form of such a thing then why wait any longer? This forum has become more of a family to me than my real family. I've learned a lot here, and I've grown a lot here, and those are things I wouldn't give up for anything. But I still contribute to the nonsense. Sometimes nonsense just seems like the best thing to say. But I still do it. No amount of help elsewhere on the site can change the fact that I post nonsense. So I'm part of the problem. The shots are yours to call, so it's not like you really need my, or anyone else's permission to do what you want. It's your forum. Make it what you want it to be. If you're going to ban people that post nonsense for posting nonsense then start with me.

Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsFurthermore, what about the mods? How many of the mods have posted nonsense? I'm not going to go and point fingers, but it's not like we couldn't make a list of nonsense that mods have made.

Guilty as charged.

We are working on revising the board rules to better reflect recent events.
I certainly appreciate that we haven't made it crystal clear. We will work that out shortly.

Basically, we think the goofing and banter has gone too far and is distracting from having a guitar forum.

Here's an example of goofing taking over a legitimate thread. In this situation a new guy who has six posts asks a question, and then 4 forum regulars take it over by making jokes. It isn't against the rules, but it isn't helpful either:

http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18606

Here is the sort of thing we are thinking about regarding rules:

http://www.vai.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=70

We need some time to decide what specifically we want the rules to be. There are some interesting rules on vai.com about flame-bait, drama, grandstanding, hacK3R text. Read it and you will get an idea of what lengths people might want to go to in rules. Personally, I think a short list of rules stands the best chance of being read by people so I would like something shorter.

For now, my suggestion would be to quit trying to be funny for a while.

This forum would possibly one of the most monotonous sites on the web if those rules were enforced. Who wants to answer the same ol' questions every friggin day? Theres only so much to talk about. I liked this forum particularly for the people on it who I could talk with and relate to, and get some tips on guitar in the process. Is there even a purpose behind those rules? Have you gotten complaints from people upset with the discussion in the "OPEN DISCUSSION" forum? Whats the motive here? Just the fact theres bs going on? It hasnt been a problem outside the open discussion forum. Debates have stayed fairly civil, and I felt the mods kepts them under control.

If youre planning to make this site primarily to make money off the high bandwith lessons, please inform me so I can quit wasting my time here.

Dont mean any disrespect with this post, but Id hate to see such a good site go down the crapper.

The moderators thought it would be courteous to specifically reply to your message so that you would have an idea of what we are doing. We weren't aware I was being lured into an argument.

It's ironic that you threaten to quit in the middle of a discussion of whether or not we are going to kick you out. But if you want to leave, that would be fine.

Yeah Jon, my intent when I posted this thread was to "lure" you into an argument. Ive really got nothing better to do than that. :rolleyes:

There was no argument til you posted that ridiculous set of rules youre considering, with absolutely no reason for them.

Originally Posted by: Jon BroderickThe moderators thought it would be courteous to specifically reply to your message so that you would have an idea of what we are doing. We weren't aware I was being lured into an argument.

It's ironic that you threaten to quit in the middle of a discussion of whether or not we are going to kick you out. But if you want to leave, that would be fine.

I don't think the primary intent was to get you or anyone else into an argument, more so to make our feelings on the situation known. At least that's how I'm approaching it. Personally, I don't think the problem is as big as it's being made out to be.

But then again (unless my assumptions are wrong) I'm also one of the people that is being scoped as a regular that makes jokes and nothing else. So of course I'm not going to see it as a problem since all I'm doing is what comes naturally. And what you're essentially doing is asking me to change what comes naturally. You're asking me to alter my personality to match what you wish it to be. Like one would do in a relationship with a significant other. Compromise.

Well, personally I don't really feel comfortable with altering who I am for other people. I wouldn't take away my sense of humor if a girl asked me to, and I'm not going to because you've asked me to. I'm not always trying to crack jokes even though people find them funny. It's just the nature of the way I word things. In the Iowa thread, I wasn't trying to make anyone laugh. I was being serious. I mean, think about it. Iowa is like Idaho. It's not exactly a landmark place, so I wasn't exactly expecting the number of members in Iowa to rival that of say, Californians. I'm sorry if you thought that was out of context, but I was just telling everyone what I thought.

I'm not trying to butt heads. I'm just expressing my side of things. As a person that regulates this forum and has formed a friendship with a number of the people here, I don't find it much at all to ask to speak my mind, especially when it's something as intense as this.

I don't disagree with the notion to add some rules, but if we're using the Iowa thread as an example on what you're trying to eliminate, then that seems drastic, especially considering there were mods involved in that as well. So, I hold the stance I last had. Call the shots as you will.

I think one of the big things about this whole issue (unless I'm mistaken) is some mods thinking that all the randomized chatter will scare away potential members. The fear is that guitarists will stumble onto GT, read some thread about scones (just as an example, I'm not blaming CW14) and think this is some sort of madhouse where no actual intellectual conversation goes on. Fair enough. That's a very legitimate concern for the mods.

I just think it's being overlooked how all the random nonsense can be a good thing. When Tonja Renee first joined the forum, she started a thread about the cold temperature where she lives. I spoke off-topic, leading the conversation down a different path. Not long after, she added me to her contacts on MSN messenger. Now we talk to each other nearly every night. Akira and jeffhx are also on my contact list as of now.

I honestly can't think of a single person on this forum I don't like. If all the talk was all guitars and music all the time, I'd never really know. I love guitar, I love music, but there's only so much that can be said. And besides, I don't have a whole lot in common with anyone I've come across, strictly speaking in musical terms.

Now when some member has a question, and random posts ensue, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. If the question goes unanswered and the member is still left in the dark, then yeah, it is bad, and those who ignored his question should, by all means, be spoken to by the mods. But if the question is answered and the topic gets changed after that, what's the harm?

This thread here is a glaring example of what's wrong. http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18052&page=1&pp=7&highlight=cherry

Quite frankly I'm suprised someone wasn't banned on the spot. This is disgusting behavior and I may have not seen a lot of happened while I was away. You cannot act like this and expect us mods to laugh it off. None of that was funny.

Id have to say that Ninja's example is a little better than the first one, though that thread is pretty funny. I can deal with a no tolerance policy on high jacking other people's threads, regardless of the forum it was posted in. I just dont see how something like that would drive us towards the strictly guitar, no controversial conversation policy like the Vai forum Jon linked.

I don't think we're keeping all those rules and we may even reword the ones we do keep but still that Cherry Lane thread really made me disappointed.

"consequence is the soul creator of change"

Atleast I learned something in LIT 213. Ralph Waldo Emerson said that... And I believe if the mods show people the consequences of their actions... things may change. Maybe a couple temp. bans will change things, who knows... In athletics... as a player and a coach I find that sometimes you need to make an example out of somebody... In my college baseball days I got benched for a game because I missed a team meeting... A lot of the Alumni was upset because it was a big game against our biggest rival... I was the starting shortstop and our number 3 hitter... we lost the game, ironically on an error by the shortstop that replaced me for the game. I didn't cry about it... I knew an example was being made of me. Because my coach told me... "You're going to be an example for everyone else... on the field and off the field... and this is a perfect oppertunity to use you as one." So, I guess what I'm saying is... Sometimes benching the best player sends the best message......... I learned my lesson, and no one else missed a team meeting without a good excuse... But I also think some people here need to see that we're trying to move toward a more conflict free forum... not a restricted forum. I don't think anyone is saying you can't talk about what you want to talk about... Just that sometimes threads are being turned into nothing but off-the-subject joke fests... that really aren't needed. Especially when someone comes to this forum to ask questions and the question is completely ignored... It IS dissappointing. I'm just putting in my comments... not that my opinion was asked for or that it matters... I feel like everyone should do their own part to make this forum work the way it should... Think before you post and we shouldn't have any problems...

Well said.
I'm stuck on the fence on this subject.
I can understand that this is a great place to hang out. One of those reasons is that there’s real people here who you can joke around with and even occasionally post 'stupid' things. And just like in real life, sometimes topics will stray off the point.
Then to have an 'authority' figure basically walk in the room and tell everybody 'HEY... YOU’RE NOT TALKING ABOUT AN AUTHORIZED SUBJECT!’ puts a bit of a damper on things. Especially when one of those authority figures participates in the stupidness occasionally themselves.

On the other hand, we've got people who are new and asking serious questions, who don't quite have a handle on the atmosphere here yet.
Some of the more senior members feel like it's ok to interrupt them, make fun of them etc.. basically having an inside joke at their expense.

Maybe if you relate it to a real life example...

Lets say you have a big office building called "Guitar Tricks"
There's a whole bunch of rooms where you can go and have conversations with people who have similar interests to your own. There are rooms with serious discussion in them called ‘Gear’, ‘Songwriting’, ‘The Listening Room’ etc.. etc...

So let’s walk into the main lobby at the Guitar Tricks building:
The door opens and there’s this big room called "Open Discussion"

New people go in and introduce themselves, getting a feel for the place.
Some of the older members stick around to greet them and make them feel comfortable. There's a few older members off in one corner laughing at some joke they're sharing. In another corner of the room, a new member is asking another member a serious question about the guitar.
Suddenly, one of the guys from the older members groups walks over and throws a picture of a car on the table and says "hey.. check this out it's really funny"... then a bunch of the other older members start butting into this private conversation and making asses of themselves while the new guy stands around stunned, trying to figure out what's going on.

If you did that in real life, it would be considered extremely rude and the owners of the building would start getting complaints that this doesn't seem to be the great place everybody makes it out to be. So the owners start listening in on what's going on and realize... hey... come on, we're pretty relaxed around here and like to have fun, but there's a time and a place for it.
Some of you guys are really taking things too far..walking all over the lobby, interrupting people, making dumb jokes that aren't really funny, posting stupid pictures up on the wall and spraying graffiti...

So what do the owners do?
They take a few of the worst offenders aside and say "I'm sorry but we’re going to have to ask you to leave for awhile and think about the way you've been acting around here. You're welcome back, but if you continue the way you’ve been going, we'll have to ask you to leave permanently. We realize the rules aren't set in stone and sometimes there are going to be people that are allowed to bend the rules. There's even occasions when the owners will hang around the lobby and share a few inside jokes themselves.
But there's got to be some common sense here.
You can't just keep acting like an idiot without any concern for how this might be affecting other people in the building.

So Joe Blow goes away for a week to think about things.
Then h’s welcomed back. But instead of using that week to think about things, he’s been brooding about getting kicked out and immediately starts being sarcastic about the owners. He’s still walking around being a general nuisance of himself and trying to stir up trouble. He’s talking back to the owners behind their backs and saying things under his breath.

Now the owners have gone off to their private offices to talk about this guy and some of the others who’ve been getting out of hand lately. Some of the owners just want to kick the guy out and be done with it. Others enjoy the guys company and think he just needs to get his act in line and are willing to give him a chance.

So... ok, we’ve tried the ‘totally relaxed’ thing and it’s working great. But what the heck do we do about people who don’t seem to have a check on themselves?
Do we write a bunch of strick rules and ruin everybody elses fun? Do we kick them out and throw out somebody who’s made a bunch of friends here and probably contributed quite a bit to tatmosphere around our nice Guitar Tricks offices?
Well.. the owners don’t know. That’s what they’re up their offices talking about right now.

Originally Posted by: schmangeDo we write a bunch of strick rules and ruin everybody elses fun? Do we kick them out and throw out somebody who’s made a bunch of friends here and probably contributed quite a bit to tatmosphere around our nice Guitar Tricks offices?
Well.. the owners don’t know. That’s what they’re up their offices talking about right now.

Say we've got a music group here. It consists of a guitarists, a bassist and a drummer. All of the members are very close friends and have been for a few years now, but for the longest time, the drummer just hasn't been picking up on things. The members have high goals with music and can't afford to be held back by anything, so the guitarist and bassist begin evaluating the drummer. Whenever he gets one song down the last one seems to go out the window. He can never seem to get more than one song down at a time and he basically makes all the practices complete wastes. The question is would you waste your time and continue to go no where because of one person? Or would you do what's in your goals' best interest and seek change? Yeah, he's a great friend, been friends since high school, but he's just not helping the band get where it wants to be. So I say yes. If there are people here (myself included) that aren't helping to make the guitar tricks offices what you're striving to make them, then something must be done or else the change will never happen.

I'm starting to wonder what the problem is. Everyone who has posted here seems to understand how there are times when it just isn't appropriate to blurt out ridiculous things.

Originally Posted by: schmange Best Analogy Ever

This has made me see the situation in a whole new light. You make some excellent points. However I still think the attention is being focused on the wrong areas. That Cherry Lane thread was pretty bad now that I go back on it, and threads like that are, indeed, a disgrace. I personally am ashamed of myself, however funny people may find it. But threads like the Iowa thread, which could so easily go back on topic and the question was answered, in my opinion are not worth all this. I think everybody understands what is expected of them in terms of answering questions, keeping things civil and not being a jackass in general. Let's not make this into a forum full of robots, because nobody will want to be a part of that any more than a forum full of clowns, myself included.