Playing Back in Black

I was reading another post regarding learning to play Back in Black (BiB). That made me think of a Back in Black question as well. I didn't want to hijack his thread by asking my question. Once upon a time I started learning BiB. I know that both Angus and Malcom Young are/were both 5'2" tall. They must have really long fingers to be able play some of there licks. I'm 5'8" with hands prortional to my stature. I can barely put my index finger on a fret, skip a fret, and get my pinky to the 2nd fret down from the one my index finger is on. Mush less skipping 5 or 6 fretts like in the intro to BiB. I'll try to make a tab below. I dont think they ever lift off the second fret of the 5th string while hitting the notes on the 6th string. If anyone knows a work around I'm all ears.

A -----2-------2-------2-------2--------

E ---------4-------5--------6-------7-----

Don't try keeping your finger pinned on the A string. You have to have lots of flexibility for that. The tempos not so high that you can't switch your finger on and off the A and still keep time. Just takes practice.

Originally Posted by: William MG

Don't try keeping your finger pinned on the A string. You have to have lots of flexibility for that. The tempos not so high that you can't switch your finger on and off the A and still keep time. Just takes practice.

Yep, thats the way I have to play it. I saw a tutorial video a while back and the guy doing the video could could actually keep his index finger on the A-string and hit the notes on the B-string with out ever moving his index finger. He had some long fingers for sure.

I can manage the 5 fret stretch without struggling (apparently, I have large hands), but don't usually make stretches like that unless there's no option. Otherwise I'll lift fingers just to save on potential wear and tear.

On that particular riff, I have no problems playing it lifting my index finger slightly to play the higher frets (this also has the advantage of stopping the note from ringing, which adds a little staccato effect)

Originally Posted by: snpfarm

Originally Posted by: William MG

Don't try keeping your finger pinned on the A string. You have to have lots of flexibility for that. The tempos not so high that you can't switch your finger on and off the A and still keep time. Just takes practice.

Yep, thats the way I have to play it. I saw a tutorial video a while back and the guy doing the video could could actually keep his index finger on the A-string and hit the notes on the B-string with out ever moving his index finger. He had some long fingers for sure.

Long fingers are definitely good to have especially if they are flexible. But being my age and with arthritis, I am only willing to go so far. The hardest one for me yet has been Nadine by Chuck Berry. That was as killer but I eventually found a way to play it.

Originally Posted by: snpfarm

I was reading another post regarding learning to play Back in Black (BiB). That made me think of a Back in Black question as well. I didn't want to hijack his thread by asking my question. Once upon a time I started learning BiB. I know that both Angus and Malcom Young are/were both 5'2" tall. They must have really long fingers to be able play some of there licks. I'm 5'8" with hands prortional to my stature. I can barely put my index finger on a fret, skip a fret, and get my pinky to the 2nd fret down from the one my index finger is on. Mush less skipping 5 or 6 fretts like in the intro to BiB. I'll try to make a tab below. I dont think they ever lift off the second fret of the 5th string while hitting the notes on the 6th string. If anyone knows a work around I'm all ears.

A -----2-------2-------2-------2--------

E ---------4-------5--------6-------7-----

[br]Several things come to mind for your consideration, some of which might help?[br][br] As you describe your currently achievable span and inferred previous experience "Once upon a time I started learning BiB", A. your hands must be even smaller than mine, and B. the other really more of a question re acquired flexibility with practice. How long have you been playing guitar consistently and challenging yourself to increase reach and flexibility. If that's less than a year or two, take comfort in knowing that your reach and flexibility will improve over time -within the constraints of individual anatomical limit. [br][br]For frame of comparative reference. I'm 5'9", non-ecto, and have hands and fingers disproportionate on the smallish/shortish side relative to height. Full disclosure, although I recognise its iconic status and like the tune, I haven't bothered learning "Back In Black" myself yet for the sake of just too many preferred alternatives I keep being triaging ahead of it. But yesterday's discussion and now yours has piqued my curiosity.[br][br]"Back in Black". Looking at Mike's tute for the riff and giving it a go prima facie, I can see your issue with the 7th fret E. I play a similar stretch with "Heartbreaker" coming to mind, from 2nd albeit to 6th on the A and D strings where holding the pointer down for rapid alternate picking (quasi-staccato ?) & pinky for vibrato is required, and play it interchangably on both short and long scale guitars. It just took repetitive practice to get it [u]comfortably[/u] instinctively nailed.

[br]With my span, trying the BIB riff just now on the first guitar I picked up, a Pacifica Strat, I can [u]just[/u] reach the 7th fret E from the 2nd [u]anchored[/u] on A, but j.u..s...t, and certainly not to the ideal fretting position adjacent to the actual 8th fret. [br][br]Angus plays it on a short scale guitar. So does Mike in the tute. Do you? It generally does make a difference to those of us with smaller hands and less anatomically flexible (spidery fingered wide webbed ecto) vs reliance upon only acquired flexibility through practice. I'll try it later today when I have time. Have an appointment to attend prior.

[br]Back to the GT tute. [u]Watching Mike, he's lifting his pointer off the A[/u] string after he frets the B with it in between alternating notes progressively along the neck up to the 7th.

[br]Even if using the GT tutorial as your primary source to learn to play "Back In Black", this is worth a watch. P.S. Edit for clarification. That's the tute, (shortened) demo play through illustrating how it sounds comparatively and how Andy frets it here. Although a BIB rhythm lesson, watch how Andy (Shutup & Play) -[u]who does have small hands[/u] but is nevertheless a first rate guitarist and AAA song tutor and so a source of perpetual inspiration to me of what can be achieved, teaches it and frets it moving his pointer. He also refers the alternative slide methodology/technique used by some players whilst making clear it's not played on the recording that way. He talks about stretching here, and offers a key tip in general directly applicable to this riff which upon reflection in thinking about it, I realised I do subconsiously now. Note that Andy also plays short scale using his ubiquitious drop dead gorgeous Les Paul. [br][br]GL with it. Glad you asked the question. Interesting, and I learned something which will definitely help when I come to learn it. [br][br][br][br] [br][br][br]

Originally Posted by: manXcatAlthough a BIB rhythm lesson, watch how Andy (Shutup & Play) -[u]who does have small hands[/u]

Thanks so much for the info and links. I watched them several times. Andy may have small hands but using the neck of his guitar as a reference I can tell his hands are bigger than mine. As an example my pinky is only 2 inches long.

I mostly play a Tele with 25.5 inch scale length, or a Gretsch G5420 with a 24.6 inch scale length. In all honesty, I've never noticed anything easier about playability other than bending the G string on the Gretsch is pretty difficult because I fitted a set with a wound third for tone reasons.

I've read and heard quite a lot about shorter scale length being easier, in which case I believe the Fender Jaguar has the shortest, but I just don't find it makes a difference for me.

Hand/wrist or thumb position, too much of a bend in the fretting-hand wrist, holding the guitar at wrong angles or too low, and general bad technique seem to me to make bigger differences.

Of course, short or overly long fingers may call for a little adapting; and there may be some things you plain cannot do without finding some kind of workaround.

Originally Posted by: snpfarm

Originally Posted by: manXcatAlthough a BIB rhythm lesson, watch how Andy (Shutup & Play) -[u]who does have small hands[/u]

Thanks so much for the info and links. I watched them several times. Andy may have small hands but using the neck of his guitar as a reference I can tell his hands are bigger than mine. As an example my pinky is barely one and a half inches long.

Presumably your datum/frame of reference for the measurement is from the inner web between it and the ring finger? If so, inarguably that is [u]very[/u] short, which proportionally will be limiting on your max fret span. That said, your hands and span appear to be on the extreme end of the adult small and short scale. You have my empathy. Guitar is the singular pursuit of the many I've participated in over the course of a lifetime where I've found my hand shape, size & finger length and intrinsic flexibility (endo/exo vs ecto) impacted detrimentially to the relative degree it does.[br][br]The solutions I've found personally for guitar are;[br][br]1. Persevere and try harder [u]initially[/u]. Everyone starting out blames inflexibility, lack of co-ordination and thinks their hands could be bigger unless they are the size of the late Chuck Berry's. In your case, you appear to have eliminated that as the underlying primary factor.[br][br]2. IMPORTANT: [u]Buy guitars which are a good body fit for you[/u], not because the brand is popular, common amongst others with normal to large size hands or because of the status of the brand on the headstock. Consider all the factors of string spacing, radius, nut width, neck profile, fret size, weight & balance. Short scale can help, but owning multiple examples of both, IMPEHO scale length is not the most important physical factor vs the others mentioned prior. The more going in your favour, the easier fretting will present.[br][br]3. Look for [u]pragmatic[/u] workarounds and be flexible, [u]figuratively[/u]. You'll find the truly useful inspirational examples to hep when you're struggling come from people with smaller than average hands like Andy (S&P) and although proportional for his 5' 7" stature, Steve Stine. Those who don't can never walk that proverbial 'mile in your shoes'. Regardless they'll offer up straw argument always by way of individual examples of famous guitar players with small hands, and some may even be capable of empathy rather than dismissal as an irrelevance in hardly disguised contempt, the fact is that they can never truly comprehend or understand that encumbrance and challenge from the personal experience perspective. They can be more an irritation than helpful in subliminally suggesting ipso facto the problem is psychological rather than physical.

4. Lastly, one doesn't have to like it how it is, but one does have to [u]accept the limitation and work with it[/u]. [br][br]Yeh, that sucks I know, as in most other many other physical sports/activities I've participated in over the course of a lifetime, i.e. squash racquets as but a singular example there are tradeoffs of speed over reach, and hand size doesn't affect either grip on the racket or power delivery to any significant degree. In fact, apart from reach from centre of court for ectos, stout or short stature can be used to tactical and strategic advantage as can the opposite in dictating the pace and style of the game played on court. If only it were so with guitar.[br][br] [u]What is/are your electric guitar/s?[/u] Correct me if I'm wrong, but checking moments ago, you said you ended up with an Epi LP Standard? Drop dead gorgous shape and aesthetically pleasing no argument, and not deriding the potential achievable tone (pickup dependent), but as an instrument to fret for smaller handed people despite being short scale, no. Emphatically. Just no. [br][br]Notwithstanding that very heavy though aesthetically attractive awkward shaped body, dreadful headstock body CG imbalance & neck rise if not wearing a strap -opposite of the SG, and that chunky neck of the traditional standard. Ugh. Yes, I am biased and would dearly love to love the LP, but I'm pragmatically ruled by the head not emotion nor intercedence of ego. There are simply [u]smarter[/u] options for smaller handed people which will prove a better fit for you if you opt to take them, IMV or course. OOMV.

[br]Hopefully there's something encouraging and helpful in there -if brutally honest.[br][br]All the best with your personal search and continuing journey.

And if all else fails, take up mandolin or uke instead (just kidding).

Enjoy what you currently own. I've known several guitar players who keep buying another guitar in hopes that the newest addition to their collection will make them a better player, but it never does.

Lots of guitars are "top heavy"... the head of my Tele loves to sink to the floor, but a leather strap cures that as it grips my shirt. The body shape isn't exactly comfortable compared against sleeker models, either. But it's a fit with what I wanted in both tone and what I play.

My opinion on guitars is if someone is going to tell me what I should buy, then I am happy to agree 100percent but ONLY if they pay for it using their money :)

Originally Posted by: manXcat

Originally Posted by: snpfarm

Originally Posted by: manXcatAlthough a BIB rhythm lesson, watch how Andy (Shutup & Play) -[u]who does have small hands[/u]

Thanks so much for the info and links. I watched them several times. Andy may have small hands but using the neck of his guitar as a reference I can tell his hands are bigger than mine. As an example my pinky is barely one and a half inches long.

Presumably your datum/frame of reference for the measurement is from the inner web between it and the ring finger? If so, inarguably that is [u]very[/u] short, which proportionally will be limiting on your max fret span. That said, your hands and span appear to be on the extreme end of the adult small and short scale. You have my empathy. Guitar is the singular pursuit of the many I've participated in over the course of a lifetime where I've found my hand shape, size & finger length and intrinsic flexibility (endo/exo vs ecto) impacted detrimentially to the relative degree it does.[br][br]The solutions I've found personally for guitar are;[br][br]1. Persevere and try harder [u]initially[/u]. Everyone starting out blames inflexibility, lack of co-ordination and thinks their hands could be bigger unless they are the size of the late Chuck Berry's. In your case, you appear to have eliminated that as the underlying primary factor.[br][br]2. IMPORTANT: [u]Buy guitars which are a good body fit for you[/u], not because the brand is popular, common amongst others with normal to large size hands or because of the status of the brand on the headstock. Consider all the factors of string spacing, radius, nut width, neck profile, fret size, weight & balance. Short scale can help, but owning multiple examples of both, IMPEHO scale length is not the most important physical factor vs the others mentioned prior. The more going in your favour, the easier fretting will present.[br][br]3. Look for [u]pragmatic[/u] workarounds and be flexible, [u]figuratively[/u]. You'll find the truly useful inspirational examples to hep when you're struggling come from people with smaller than average hands like Andy (S&P) and although proportional for his 5' 7" stature, Steve Stine. Those who don't can never walk that proverbial 'mile in your shoes'. Regardless they'll offer up straw argument always by way of individual examples of famous guitar players with small hands, and some may even be capable of empathy rather than dismissal as an irrelevance in hardly disguised contempt, the fact is that they can never truly comprehend or understand that encumbrance and challenge from the personal experience perspective. They can be more an irritation than helpful in subliminally suggesting ipso facto the problem is psychological rather than physical.

4. Lastly, one doesn't have to like it how it is, but one does have to [u]accept the limitation and work with it[/u]. [br][br]Yeh, that sucks I know, as in most other many other physical sports/activities I've participated in over the course of a lifetime, i.e. squash racquets as but a singular example there are tradeoffs of speed over reach, and hand size doesn't affect either grip on the racket or power delivery to any significant degree. In fact, apart from reach from centre of court for ectos, stout or short stature can be used to tactical and strategic advantage as can the opposite in dictating the pace and style of the game played on court. If only it were so with guitar.[br][br] [u]What is/are your electric guitar/s?[/u] Correct me if I'm wrong, but checking moments ago, you said you ended up with an Epi LP Standard? Drop dead gorgous shape and aesthetically pleasing no argument, and not deriding the potential achievable tone (pickup dependent), but as an instrument to fret for smaller handed people despite being short scale, no. Emphatically. Just no. [br][br]Notwithstanding that very heavy though aesthetically attractive awkward shaped body, dreadful headstock body CG imbalance & neck rise if not wearing a strap -opposite of the SG, and that chunky neck of the traditional standard. Ugh. Yes, I am biased and would dearly love to love the LP, but I'm pragmatically ruled by the head not emotion nor intercedence of ego. There are simply [u]smarter[/u] options for smaller handed people which will prove a better fit for you if you opt to take them, IMV or course. OOMV.

[br]Hopefully there's something encouraging and helpful in there -if brutally honest.[br][br]All the best with your personal search and continuing journey.

Thank you.....I think??

I have zero issues playing my Epiphone Les Paul Standard. That's why I bought it. I'm well aware of what my limitations are. I try to find work around for songs I have trouble with....actually that's what I thought I was doing when I started this thread....asking if anyone might know of another way to play a particular section of the song that I had trouble with.

Originally Posted by: snpfarm

I have zero issues playing my Epiphone Les Paul Standard. That's why I bought it.[/quote][p]

OK. If you say so, but if you think about it, that contradicts your request for a workaround if you "have zero issues playing my Epiphone Les Paul Standard". FWIW I would, and albeit smaller than average or proportional to height, my hands are larger than yours given the information supplied.

Just trying to help offering viable alternatives not stuck in the "one size should fit all" mentality box. What you choose to do with the info is up to you. Horse to water idiom. [br][br]Among my inventory I've got a Harley Benton SC Custom (customised Les Paul clone) BTW, but they have a fast "SlimTaper" profiled contemporary neck and although they are a solid mahogany body and still heavy relatively, they aren't quite the log the thicker bodied standard Epis are. Played those chunky necked Epis. Ugh. Not for my hands. There are just alternatives better suited to smaller hands [u]AFAIC[/u]. [br][br]That said, [u]sincerely[/u] glad yours now apparently works for you with [u]"zero issues"[/u]. [br][br][quote=snpfarm]I'm well aware of what my limitations are. I try to find work around for songs I have trouble with....actually that's what I thought I was doing when I started this thread....asking if anyone might know of another way to play a particular section of the song that I had trouble with.

Already provided. Did you actually watch right through beginning to end [u]how[/u] Andy fingers and frets BIB and his later comments on [u]how to execute the stretch[/u] I provided for you in a timed hotlink within those hotlinks? That's about as much of a workaround and solid advice for smaller hands as you'll find IMV&E. Re Andy's hands, remember the camera distorts & always makes everything look larger than in real life. Andy does have shortish thicker fingers, but a loads of experience and many decades on that guitar as well as being an exceptionally gifted tutor. Note how he places the LP body when in the sitting position too.[br][br]Anyway GL with it regardless. My intention was to assist, not dent buyer pride or offend ego by being misinterpreted as denigrating your guitar per se. In time you may, or not, discover the validity of what I've said previously = true.

Originally Posted by: manXcat

Originally Posted by: snpfarm

I have zero issues playing my Epiphone Les Paul Standard. That's why I bought it.[/quote][p]

OK. If you say so, but if you think about it, that contradicts your request for a workaround if you "have zero issues playing my Epiphone Les Paul Standard". FWIW I would, and albeit smaller than average or proportional to height, my hands are larger than yours given the information supplied.

Just trying to help offering viable alternatives not stuck in the "one size should fit all" mentality box. What you choose to do with the info is up to you. Horse to water idiom. [br][br]Among my inventory I've got a Harley Benton SC Custom (customised Les Paul clone) BTW, but they have a fast "SlimTaper" profiled contemporary neck and although they are a solid mahogany body and still heavy relatively, they aren't quite the log the thicker bodied standard Epis are. Played those chunky necked Epis. Ugh. Not for my hands. There are just alternatives better suited to smaller hands [u]AFAIC[/u]. [br][br]That said, [u]sincerely[/u] glad yours now apparently works for you with [u]"zero issues"[/u]. [br][br][quote=snpfarm]I'm well aware of what my limitations are. I try to find work around for songs I have trouble with....actually that's what I thought I was doing when I started this thread....asking if anyone might know of another way to play a particular section of the song that I had trouble with.

[p]

Already provided. Did you actually watch right through beginning to end [u]how[/u] Andy fingers and frets BIB and his later comments on [u]how to execute the stretch[/u] I provided for you in a timed hotlink within those hotlinks? That's about as much of a workaround and solid advice for smaller hands as you'll find IMV&E. Re Andy's hands, remember the camera distorts & always makes everything look larger than in real life. Andy does have shortish thicker fingers, but a loads of experience and many decades on that guitar as well as being an exceptionally gifted tutor. Note how he places the LP body when in the sitting position too.[br][br]Anyway GL with it regardless. My intention was to assist, not dent buyer pride or offend ego by being misinterpreted as denigrating your guitar per se. In time you may, or not, discover the validity of what I've said previously = true.

After this, I'm done. I never said that I couldn't play BIB. I started this whole thing by saying that I couldn't play it the way I thought Angus Young does...presuming he has small hands to match his small stature. I thought that he was making a stretch from the 2nd to the 7th fret without ever lifting from the 2nd fret. I asked for a work around to that scenario because I couldn't make that stretch. DraconusJLM and William MJ both replied with some good info saying it doesn't hurt to lift from the 2nd fret and move to the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th. I replied saying "that is how I've been playing it (lifting off the 2nd)". I NEVER said I couldn't play the song. Whether you believe me or not, I can play my Epiphone Les Paul Standard and Takamine Acoustic plenty good enough to satisfy me. If I have trouble I will try to find a way to overcome the issue. If I can't then I'll ask for help. Thank you again for all your words of wisdom. It is greatly appreciated and will be put to use when needed.

I've just been watching a video of a live performance and have playing this song sussed.... You need a Gibson SG, school satchel and schoolboy uniform to play lead. To play rhythm you need a Gretsch White Falcon; attire appears pretty regular.

Anything other than the above and yer jus' doin' it wrong, boy!

I'm considering taking up tennis so am off to buy a banjo

Originally Posted by: DraconusJLM

And if all else fails, take up mandolin or uke instead (just kidding).

[u]Enjoy what you currently own[/u].....

I couldn't agree more!! And I enjoy mine immensely.

This is what I have been playing at the office lately. Lovely guitar to play.

Originally Posted by: DraconusJLM

I mostly play a Tele with 25.5 inch scale length, or a Gretsch G5420 with a 24.6 inch scale length. In all honesty, I've never noticed anything easier about playability other than bending the G string on the Gretsch is pretty difficult because I fitted a set with a wound third for tone reasons.

[/quote]

Pictures please :) ..I mean, if you want to. I do like me a Gretsch hollowbody and the Electromatics are really nice guitars.

[quote=snpfarm]

I thought that he was making a stretch from the 2nd to the 7th fret without ever lifting from the 2nd fret. I asked for a work around to that scenario because I couldn't make that stretch.

I've been playing BIB since nearly the time it came out. Almost. BIB preceded my first guitar by about a year and I didn't try learning it until '83. So, it's been noodled on more than a few times.

I never make the stretch. I have average sized hands but that's not really the point of how to play it. In my opinion anyway. Because it has the synchpated rhythmic ascending notes, holding and then releasing the strings helps with the definition between notes.

Funny enough, I've found it easier to play this run on chunkier necks as it seems to, for some reason that's only in my head, force me to only play and release each notes as I ascend. It forces me not to play it sloppily. My Strat has a really nice, quick neck and I just noodled it and it was too easy. I actually fumbled it a bit. Seriously. So I grabbed my Gresch which has a little more neck chunk and it went off smoothly. Though Malcom played Gretsch's so maybe this can only be played correctly on a Gretsch! ;)

Originally Posted by: JeffS65

I never make the stretch. I have average sized hands but that's not really the point of how to play it. In my opinion anyway. Because it has the synchpated rhythmic ascending notes, holding and then releasing the strings helps with the definition between notes.

Thanks for the info. This realy blew up more than I thought it would. My fault for not making my point a little more clear. My whole intentions were to say that if Malcom or Angus were making that kind of stretch then their hands are way out of portion to their stature. I have to jump back and forth to make it work. Thought it woud be cool if I could lift off the 5th string just enough to seperate the notes and place my fingers in a stretch on the 6th string notes.

I can't get a photo of my Gretsch to upload but this is the website; mine has Orange stain:

https://www.gretschguitars.com/gear/build/hollow-body/g5420t-electromatic-hollow-body-single-cut-with-bigsby/2506011512

I would have gone for a 6120 but can't really justify the spend on top of my Strymon addiction :)

To come back to the PO 's issue, easy work around;

A--2------2------2------2-2

e -----4-------5------6--

same note but little different sound and nobody will really hear the difference.

Live is easy if you want it to be