Question about the "blues note" (b5)

Hey Dave,

If, for your solos, you stay on the I minor pentatonic scale (let's say A minor pentatonic) even when the chords switch to IV7 and V7 (e.g., D7 and E7), what happens to the blues note. I've never seen it placed anywhere in any of the blues box shapes other than a tritone away from the root of the I chord. However, if it stays there and you continue to use it when the IV chord comes around, you're playing the b2 (or b9) of the IV chord, and then when you get to the V chord that note is the maj7 of the chord. I doubt that either of those are particularly usable. Do you use it only for the I chord (assuming as I said that you stay on the A minor pentatonic scale throughout the chord changes).

On another "note" (haha), I regret that I will not be able to participate in the live blues stream this week but I will be traveling and will have to catch the recorded lesson when I get back.

Thanks

Dave

Honestly, I am not sure but I would just try it- and see how it goes. Many of the best players develop their feel by ear- not theory so I would not over think it. If it sounds right- go with it- if it doesn't, go with it anyway! There are no rules in Rock n Roll. My initial thoughts are that the blues note is relative to the scale so if you are playing the mPenta scale (5 shapes and 5 notes in each shape), it might still work. Also, keep in mind that the minor penta is not so much a shape unless you think of it as such. How you think of it could potentially help or hurt your playing. The notes are all over the fretboard. Just like chords alone do not so much define the key. There are many factors to consider. I also do lessons with a Berklee instructor online and he hates shapes. He is all about ear training. I find shapes much easier but everyone is different. I can confidently say that learning all the notes on the fretboard and how to instantly find the root note in all locations really helps a lot as well.

Originally Posted by: SRVFan2000

Honestly, I am not sure but I would just try it- and see how it goes. Many of the best players develop their feel by ear- not theory so I would not over think it. If it sounds right- go with it- if it doesn't, go with it anyway! There are no rules in Rock n Roll. My initial thoughts are that the blues note is relative to the scale so if you are playing the mPenta scale (5 shapes and 5 notes in each shape), it might still work. Also, keep in mind that the minor penta is not so much a shape unless you think of it as such. How you think of it could potentially help or hurt your playing. The notes are all over the fretboard. Just like chords alone do not so much define the key. There are many factors to consider. I also do lessons with a Berklee instructor online and he hates shapes. He is all about ear training. I find shapes much easier but everyone is different. I can confidently say that learning all the notes on the fretboard and how to instantly find the root note in all locations really helps a lot as well.

Thanks SRVfan. I'm an empiricist at heart and, as per your suggestion, I tried that. In fact, it doesn't sound half bad to my ear. However, my experiment was somewhat imperfect as, without a looper, I'm basically doing kind of a call-and-response thing where I play a chord on for the first beat of the measure, and then, for the remainder, do a little minor pentatonic run. So I'm not really hearing the note-in-question right up against the chord tones but rather, in proximity to them.

I hear you. Like Bob Ross might have said, the Blues note was probably a happy accident (that stuck.) I'm sure that whatever you are playing sounds great. Sometimes, whether on piano or guitar, I will make "mistakes" intentionally- and see where it leads me. You can lean into dissonent tones and as long as you finish strong- it only helps to make the piece dare I say more interesting. Many bands have done this- sometimes on purpose and sometimes not. Look at bands like Nirvana and others. In isolation, some of those notes and chords might sound terrible- but as part of a whole- they were a master piece. Instead of leaning away from the tone, they turned the volume up and played louder. Even Kurts vocals were not "polished" in the typical sense of the word. They embraced "their unique sound" so much that they started an entirely new genre. Maybe you are on to something! Play that b5 loud and proud!

Cheers!

The 'blues note' (b5) is very useful all over the entire 12-bar blues progression and functions as an 'outside' note (not in any of the chords) and creates a little bit of tension. The trick is not to stay on the b5, but rather move through it on to other more favorable scale notes.

I highly recommend you to schedule a live online 1 on 1 lesson with me where I can clarify this in more detail, plus play for you some live examples of using the b5 in action:

https://guitartricks.acuityscheduling.com/schedule.php?calendarID=1274409&fbclid=IwAR35LuhmQIjAsO_BNLAO351u0GQvGwofQ5T3_92nJZSa7dDNn2hDfTZP5IU

-Dave Celentano

Originally Posted by: dlwalke

Hey Dave,

If, for your solos, you stay on the I minor pentatonic scale (let's say A minor pentatonic) even when the chords switch to IV7 and V7 (e.g., D7 and E7), what happens to the blues note. I've never seen it placed anywhere in any of the blues box shapes other than a tritone away from the root of the I chord. However, if it stays there and you continue to use it when the IV chord comes around, you're playing the b2 (or b9) of the IV chord, and then when you get to the V chord that note is the maj7 of the chord. I doubt that either of those are particularly usable. Do you use it only for the I chord (assuming as I said that you stay on the A minor pentatonic scale throughout the chord changes).

On another "note" (haha), I regret that I will not be able to participate in the live blues stream this week but I will be traveling and will have to catch the recorded lesson when I get back.

Thanks

Dave

You might want to try these ideas and concepts of the b5 over some blues backing tracks rather than a looper pedal. The backing tracks provide a more 'real' playing experience since they feature drums, bass, rhythm guitar, and sometimes keyboards too. And Guitar Tricks has a ton of blues backing tracks in various keys and tempos to choose from in the "Tool Box." Search under the "Blues" catagory to find them.

-Dave

Originally Posted by: dlwalke

Hey Dave,

If, for your solos, you stay on the I minor pentatonic scale (let's say A minor pentatonic) even when the chords switch to IV7 and V7 (e.g., D7 and E7), what happens to the blues note. I've never seen it placed anywhere in any of the blues box shapes other than a tritone away from the root of the I chord. However, if it stays there and you continue to use it when the IV chord comes around, you're playing the b2 (or b9) of the IV chord, and then when you get to the V chord that note is the maj7 of the chord. I doubt that either of those are particularly usable. Do you use it only for the I chord (assuming as I said that you stay on the A minor pentatonic scale throughout the chord changes).

On another "note" (haha), I regret that I will not be able to participate in the live blues stream this week but I will be traveling and will have to catch the recorded lesson when I get back.

Thanks

Dave

Originally Posted by: Dave Celentano

The 'blues note' (b5) is very useful all over the entire 12-bar blues progression and functions as an 'outside' note (not in any of the chords) and creates a little bit of tension.[/quote][p]I want to highlight this quote because Dave is exactly right. I do this exactly, use the flat 5th in a lick over all the I-IV-V changes in a blues in this tutorial.

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=723

The point in this tutorial is just to give beginners to blues licks an opportunity to practice that one lick over & again with varied articulations & dynamics. But it's a valid approach to blues soloing.

I expand the idea by changing just the final note of the lick to target root notes in later tutorials of that series.

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=2337

And in the next series of lesson I move the entire lick around to follow the chord changes.

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=2345

The point here is that you can do any and all of these! Some blues players follow the changes very closely. Some players just plow right through the changes without changing their licks at all to account for the changes. And of course some players are on a continuum in between those extremes.

[quote=Dave Celentano]The trick is not to stay on the b5, but rather move through it on to other more favorable scale notes.

This is also a great observation. This is exactly how lots of blues & especially jazz guys guys operate by playing all kinds of "outside notes". In fact this idea has been around for centuries in Baroque & classical music. You add tension by dramatically delaying the arrival of a chord tone or scale degree by playing a note (or notes) a half-step below or above the target note. You can do this for one note for a whole line!

And while which notes you use are of course important, it's just as important to consider the rhythmic phrasing: how quickly you play or when you land on which notes.

The only way to know how much or little you want to follow the changes or use outside notes is a lot of playing & listening. And a lesson with Dave will help too. :)