Bars, Measures, Beat question

If you have 4 quarter notes in a measure, in 4/4 time, the quarter notes occur on the beats (i.e., 1, 2, 3, 4) and I would think that the first beat occurs at the onset of the measure. That is, there is no delay between the onset of the measure and the first beat of that measure. However, when you see sheet music, there is space between the vertical line that indicates the beginning of the measure and the first note. Is that just a concession to graphical clarity, or am I wrong in my belief that the first beat occurs at the very beginning of the measure? Thanks.

Originally Posted by: dlwalke

If you have 4 quarter notes in a measure, in 4/4 time, the quarter notes occur on the beats (i.e., 1, 2, 3, 4) and I would think that the first beat occurs at the onset of the measure.[/quote][p]Yes, unless there is a pickup measure (technically called an anacrusis).

[quote=dlwalke]However, when you see sheet music, there is space between the vertical line that indicates the beginning of the measure and the first note.

Where did you see this?

Typically there can be a line on the extreme left edge of the staff. Then that is followed by the clef sign, key sig & time sig. Then the notes start.

The exception I can think of is if there is a repeat sign indicating to return to the notes of the first measure.

I just mean that the note falling on the first beat occurs after the vertical line indicating the start of the measure. So in the above example - a screen capture from one of the songs on the GT website- there are the vertical bars labelled 6, 7, and 8 (which I believe indicate the beginning and end of each measure), and then some space and then the first beat. To me, that suggests that the first beat occurs after the start of the measure, not at it's onset. But since I'm unaware of any way to notate a note that precedes the first beat (and exists within the same measure), I'm guessing that it's shown the way it is for clarity. Not because there is actually a delay between the beginning of the measure and the first beat.

Originally Posted by: dlwalke

I just mean that the note falling on the first beat occurs after the vertical line indicating the start of the measure. So in the above example - a screen capture from one of the songs on the GT website- there are the vertical bars labelled 6, 7, and 8 (which I believe indicate the beginning and end of each measure), and then some space and then the first beat.[/quote]

Oh, I misunderstood! I got it now. The bar line is a clear demarcation line to perceptually indicate where the information from one measure ends & info from the next measure begins. So, there needs to be a little space before & after the line for perceptual clarity.

Otherwise the notes would be right on top of the bar line. Are you saying you think there's too much space? I mean it's clear that no matter how much white space there is, the first event (note or rest) that is placed after the bar line is the first event that happens.

I know transcribers (& related software to create it) try to indicate the rhythm subdivision value by the relative space put in between stems & dots. But I'm not aware of any particular standard for the blank space after the bar line before the first event (note or rest).

Originally Posted by: dlwalkeBut since I'm unaware of any way to notate a note that precedes the first beat (and exists within the same measure)

Right, there is no way to do that because it's not possible by definition. A note that precedes the first beat of a measure is by definition in the previous measure!

[quote=dlwalke]...I'm guessing that it's shown the way it is for clarity. Not because there is actually a delay between the beginning of the measure and the first beat.

Exactly!

Yeah, that's what i thought. And I don't think there's too much space. I just thought that it's potentially confusing how space is used within the measure to notate durations (e.g., a half note gets twice as much space as a quarter note) but not to notate the duration between the start of the measure and the first beat. It actually came up because I was trying to figure out the rhythm for one version (it seems like there are many) of "For What it's Worth" where during the recurring switch from E to A, there's a really quick E that precedes the A. Instead of a straight rhythm like E------------------>A------------------>E-------------------->A, it's E-----------------E->A----------------->E-------------------E->A (again, I've seen lots of variations on this tune). I think the 2nd E of each pair is in the same measure as the first E of the pair, so it's kind of tucked into the very end of the bar that precedes the switch to A, like:

E------------------E->|A------------------->|E------------------E->|A----------------------->|.

I really stink at figuring out where notes are falling with respect to the beat though. I've tried filming myself tapping a rhythmic beat while singing the notes and then watching the video in slow-mo to see where my sung notes fall with respect to my tapping. It still confounds me sometimes. Anyway, I just wanted to make sure I understood correctly that the first beat of the measure occurs at the very start of the measure, which you have confirmed.

Thanks

Dave